I'm encouraged by your involvement, peggedbea, and I agree with your assessment. I don't think much will come of the protests, but at the moment, I'm hopeful. I'm especially worried about the coming winter - when the real cold hits in New York, I see it really dissipating.

I'm also worried about the Democrats attempting to proclaim solidarity with the protesters. I hope that the OWS protesters remember that no political party is free of guilt. Neither the democrats nor republicans are on the side of the people. Both are heavily funded by corporations and therefore are both enemies of the people.

With that being said, we have an Occupy Greensboro event here this Saturday and I plan on attending.

I don't get this hub-bub. What are people doing? They're mad, yes, but what's their focus? Some seem mad that they went to college and they can't get a job. Some are mad at the banks (the bailouts, maybe?). There just seems to be a general consensus of anger at how life isn't fair. What exactly do you do when your problem isn't focused (ie, no dictator to overthrow)? Why did you go peggedpea???

Perhaps this will help: http://videosift.com/video/David-Korten-on-how-we-can-radically-change-using-OWS

>> ^rottenseed:

I don't get this hub-bub. What are people doing? They're mad, yes, but what's their focus? Some seem mad that they went to college and they can't get a job. Some are mad at the banks (the bailouts, maybe?). There just seems to be a general consensus of anger at how life isn't fair. What exactly do you do when your problem isn't focused (ie, no dictator to overthrow)? Why did you go peggedpea???


I agree, it's really hard to figure out what they want.

I read it and all I saw was...



>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^rottenseed:
I don't get this hub-bub. What are people doing? They're mad, yes, but what's their focus? Some seem mad that they went to college and they can't get a job. Some are mad at the banks (the bailouts, maybe?). There just seems to be a general consensus of anger at how life isn't fair. What exactly do you do when your problem isn't focused (ie, no dictator to overthrow)? Why did you go peggedpea???

I agree, it's really hard to figure out what they want.

Let me restate that...so they're protesting corporate injustice. It's kind of like that David Cross joke "You cannot win a War on Terrorism. It's like having a war on jealousy." There's really nothing you can do in a protest that will change ANYthing. Who are they even speaking to? The government? Is the government going to say "you know what, these people are right, we should get out of bed with corporations." I don't really think that's a reality. Now, not all protests are futile, but are these people willing to throw away their luxuries (including their corporately made iPhones, corporately run facebook, and corporately run google)? Are they willing to go toe-to-toe with the U.S. military over it? Are they willing to die by truncheon and bullet? Because that's really what it will take. People have to die for shit to get done. And if you think that's extreme...you don't notice that their's blood right under your feet.

Oh and the best part about capitalism: Corporations don't work without money. Get a job...support your local boutiques, farmers' markets, and avoid chains who do business in a way you don't agree with. That's protest that hurts the corporations. You don't like that you went to school but you can't get a job? Learn a trade. Would've been a better choice for most of these people anyway. College isn't for everyone. And with every person that goes to college, the cost of schooling goes up. Supply and demand.

I'm pretty sure most of these people are the same ones who *are* going to farmers markets, avoiding big chains, and are supporting local businesses. The problem is that's not enough if only a minority of the population gets involved.

On that end, I think that OWS is more than just asking for change (which they certainly are doing in clear statements), it's about waking people up. Making people see the injustices that are taking place right under our very noses. In fact, many signs say that exact thing: "WAKE UP!" People should realize that they *should* be utilizing credit unions instead of banks, that they should be supporting local businesses as opposed to large chains, and that they should be buying products that are produced locally (your example of farmers markets is a good one for food).

As David Korten said, it's about dismantling large corporate power, especially those that produce nothing (read as wall street investment firms), and supporting local, more homegrown groups.

Now, granted, small homegrown companies grow into large powerful companies, and the cynic would say that it's a waste of time because it will happen all over again once these small companies increase in size. True, if things continue unchecked. But that's where the change part comes in - increasing oversight and regulation has the power to prevent this "too big to fail" bullshit.

That's a pretty long picket sign. I'm just saying that they should focus. As an engineering student, the biggest thing I learn is that in order to solve a problem, you have to break any problem into smaller bite-sized problems. That's the only way to solve things without confusing the situation. I would totally jump on the protester's side if they started to make specific demands like: stop allowing government officials taking campaign money from lobbyists/corporate interest groups. It's clear, concise, and there's and end goal in sight. You can't just say "boo this system sucks!">> ^zombieater:

I'm pretty sure most of these people are the same ones who are going to farmers markets, avoiding big chains, and are supporting local businesses. The problem is that's not enough if only a minority of the population gets involved.
On that end, I think that OWS is more than just asking for change (which they certainly are doing in clear statements), it's about waking people up. Making people see the injustices that are taking place right under our very noses. In fact, many signs say that exact thing: "WAKE UP!" People should realize that they should be utilizing credit unions instead of banks, that they should be supporting local businesses as opposed to large chains, and that they should be buying products that are produced locally (your example of farmers markets is a good one for food).
As David Korten said, it's about dismantling large corporate power, especially those that produce nothing (read as wall street investment firms), and supporting local, more homegrown groups.
Now, granted, small homegrown companies grow into large powerful companies, and the cynic would say that it's a waste of time because it will happen all over again once these small companies increase in size. True, if things continue unchecked. But that's where the change part comes in - increasing oversight and regulation has the power to prevent this "too big to fail" bullshit.

@rottenseed, my read of that declaration is that it isn't so much about trying to win a war against consumerism and greed, so much as a call for the restoration of the rule of law and democracy.

And spare me the BS about boycotts being the proper way to deal with every issue of corporate malfeasance.

Is my refusal to buy Apple products making them take steps to improve the working conditions at Foxconn? You tell me, am I winning?

If I start riding my bike to work from now on, will that make oil companies improve their safety on offshore oil wells?

If I move my checking account from Bank of America to a local credit union, am I really going to make Wall Street stop defrauding people?

Boycotts just won't get the job done. People can shop at farmer's markets, and spuriously boycott this company or that company, but has any boycott ever really resulted in an entire industry changing how they behave?

Maybe the protests won't go anywhere either, but they might wind up bringing real change too. It's happened before, it could happen again.

I understand the "one voice won't make a difference" philosophy, but isn't that, in the same breath, admitting that a protest is futile? >> ^NetRunner:

@rottenseed, my read of that declaration is that it isn't so much about trying to win a war against consumerism and greed, so much as a call for the restoration of the rule of law and democracy.
And spare me the BS about boycotts being the proper way to deal with every issue of corporate malfeasance.
Is my refusal to buy Apple products making them take steps to improve the working conditions at Foxconn? You tell me, am I winning?
If I start riding my bike to work from now on, will that make oil companies improve their safety on offshore oil wells?
If I move my checking account from Bank of America to a local credit union, am I really going to make Wall Street stop defrauding people?
Boycotts just won't get the job done. People can shop at farmer's markets, and spuriously boycott this company or that company, but has any boycott ever really resulted in an entire industry changing how they behave?
Maybe the protests won't go anywhere either, but they might wind up bringing real change too. It's happened before, it could happen again.

>> ^rottenseed:

I understand the "one voice won't make a difference" philosophy, but isn't that, in the same breath, admitting that a protest is futile?


One voice added to many others in a protest is no longer one voice.

"One" is a synonym for a minority voice in this instance. Boycotting isn't usually done by one person at a time either>> ^Boise_Lib:

>> ^rottenseed:
I understand the "one voice won't make a difference" philosophy, but isn't that, in the same breath, admitting that a protest is futile?

One voice added to many others in a protest is no longer one voice.

>> ^rottenseed:

"One" is a synonym for a minority voice in this instance. Boycotting isn't usually done by one person at a time either>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^rottenseed:
I understand the "one voice won't make a difference" philosophy, but isn't that, in the same breath, admitting that a protest is futile?

One voice added to many others in a protest is no longer one voice.



Color of Change's boycott of advertisers on Glenn Beck's show.
The massive, international boycott of South African products over apartheid.

Too many examples to list here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boycotts

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2590712

So you're saying that boycotts DO work. So then why isn't that enough to force corporations to behave???>> ^Boise_Lib:

>> ^rottenseed:
"One" is a synonym for a minority voice in this instance. Boycotting isn't usually done by one person at a time either>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^rottenseed:
I understand the "one voice won't make a difference" philosophy, but isn't that, in the same breath, admitting that a protest is futile?

One voice added to many others in a protest is no longer one voice.


Color of Change's boycott of advertisers on Glenn Beck's show.
The massive, international boycott of South African products over apartheid.
Too many examples to list here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boycotts
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboa
rd.php?az=view_all&address=132x2590712

>> ^rottenseed:

So you're saying that boycotts DO work. So then why isn't that enough to force corporations to behave???>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^rottenseed:
"One" is a synonym for a minority voice in this instance. Boycotting isn't usually done by one person at a time either>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^rottenseed:
I understand the "one voice won't make a difference" philosophy, but isn't that, in the same breath, admitting that a protest is futile?

One voice added to many others in a protest is no longer one voice.


Color of Change's boycott of advertisers on Glenn Beck's show.
The massive, international boycott of South African products over apartheid.
Too many examples to list here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boycotts
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboa
rd.php?az=view_all&address=132x2590712



Boycotts HAVE worked. After enough people are aware of the problems.

Do you think nobody knows that corporations are in bed with the government? What are we, stupid? But try telling a poor person not to buy their clothes at walmart, or their groceries at a large chain grocery store. Boycotting isn't realistic for everybody and unfortunately corporate product is very tempting.>> ^Boise_Lib:

>> ^rottenseed:
So you're saying that boycotts DO work. So then why isn't that enough to force corporations to behave???>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^rottenseed:
"One" is a synonym for a minority voice in this instance. Boycotting isn't usually done by one person at a time either>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^rottenseed:
I understand the "one voice won't make a difference" philosophy, but isn't that, in the same breath, admitting that a protest is futile?

One voice added to many others in a protest is no longer one voice.


Color of Change's boycott of advertisers on Glenn Beck's show.
The massive, international boycott of South African products over apartheid.
Too many examples to list here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boycotts
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboa
rd.php?az=view_all&address=132x2590712


Boycotts HAVE worked. After enough people are aware of the problems.

@rottenseed and @Boise_Lib, I'm not arguing that boycotts never have an impact, but boycotts alone didn't end apartheid, and boycotts alone didn't desegregate the South. Boycotts didn't get us child labor laws, boycotts didn't get us the Civil Rights Act, and boycotts didn't get us the FDA.

Boycotts are no substitute for laws. You don't stop carjackers by boycotting car companies, or gunmakers. You stop them with law enforcement.

Concise point. Now you'd have to agree that all of those protests and movements that got us somewhere had a precise focus that everybody could agree upon. They were marching, picketing, and protesting one specific cause, not a vague "boogie-man". I fail to see that aim within this "movement". In fact, I think the vagueness of it is why there are such numbers. I think if there were a specific aim, that some people might not agree with, they'd lose some strength in numbers. It's easy to just yell and shout that you're being fucked, but it's another thing to march organized towards one goal. That's all I'm saying, no focus, no work will get done.>> ^NetRunner:

@rottenseed and @Boise_Lib, I'm not arguing that boycotts never have an impact, but boycotts alone didn't end apartheid, and boycotts alone didn't desegregate the South. Boycotts didn't get us child labor laws, boycotts didn't get us the Civil Rights Act, and boycotts didn't get us the FDA.
Boycotts are no substitute for laws. You don't stop carjackers by boycotting car companies, or gunmakers. You stop them with law enforcement.

i think part or most of it is simply about creating awareness of an unjust force that insidiously effects all aspects of our life. we've been snoozing for 35 years. still snoozing

I'd disagree. Most people doing protests for civil rights didn't have a draft of the Civil Rights Act in mind. They wanted "equality", which is pretty vague. They did have a pretty long and specific list of grievances that illustrated what kinds of equality they were looking for.

Same is true here. People want "fairness", which is pretty vague. But they also have a pretty long and specific list of grievances which illustrate what kind of fairness they're looking for.

I think the real issue they've got right now is that the civil disobedience they're engaging in isn't demonstrating the injustice they're fighting against.

>> ^rottenseed:

Concise point. Now you'd have to agree that all of those protests and movements that got us somewhere had a precise focus that everybody could agree upon. They were marching, picketing, and protesting one specific cause, not a vague "boogie-man". I fail to see that aim within this "movement". In fact, I think the vagueness of it is why there are such numbers. I think if there were a specific aim, that some people might not agree with, they'd lose some strength in numbers. It's easy to just yell and shout that you're being fucked, but it's another thing to march organized towards one goal. That's all I'm saying, no focus, no work will get done.